Well given the last time a bunch of obnoxious Russian tourists showed up in Finland, their attitude is wholly understandable.
Even if the EU countries would agree, this does not seem realistic to me, when considering countries like Switzerland. They are located in the middle of the EU and the popular right wing people’s party of Switzerland is supposed to have ties to Russia. Borders to neighbouring countries have several points that are hardly controlled, especially to France.
Source: living next to the border and travelling frequently to neighbouring countries each year by car.
Switzerland is a Schengen country, so a ban of Schengen tourist visas for Russians would mean they also can’t apply for swiss tourist visas, as swiss visas are Schengen visas, i.e. the same rules apply. So unless switzerland exits Schengen, which would require a popular vote, it shouldn’t matter.
Heck, you are right about Schengen, but I am not sure about the requirement of a popular vote in this case. In article 17 about the agreement between the EU and Switzerland it is written that Switzerland can terminate the agreement. There is nothing mentioned about the referendum. Digging deeper in Swiss laws, the Federal Office clearly states an “optional” referendum, NOT a mandatory one.
Resigning from schengen contract would also mean that swiss people couldn’t travel freely across the Europe. That would be way bigger problem than the potential handful of Russian tourists around there as it’s not that uncommon to go across country borders on your grocery shopping. I very much doubt that Swizerland would shoot itself on both feet, no matter how strong ties someone around there might have to Russia.
Not only that but I feel like if they stopped following EU rules on this, those “uncontrolled” border crossings would become a whole lot more controlled.
As someone with several close Russian friends, on of whom just had a baby, doing this would suck, a lot.
Most already can’t go to Russia themselves, this would cut them off from their families completely.
It’s not about them. It’s about protecting ourselves
Also sucks when Russia sends out sabotagers and spies disguised as tourists during a war while simultaneously trying to instigate war with NATO.
They can claim asylum then if they can’t go to Russia.
True. Russia absolutely can’t find a bunch of Central-Asian looking guys with Kazakhstani passports instead. Impossible.
They can claim asylum then if they can’t go to Russia.
Perhaps you should read comments more carefully before attempting to answer them.
Spies will find other ways to enter.
This kind of things impact only everyday people. This is kinda the point of this type of measures: the idea is to pressure people to rebel to their governments. But I think Russians are not exactly optimistic this can be done (despite having their fair share of protests that end in Siberians prisons)
Obviously but why make it easy for them? Russia is becoming more and more desperate as this conflict has entered a stalemate. Their sabotage attacks on Europe are ramping up so it is stupid that we are laying out a red carpet for these guys to roll in on.
That’s kinda really bad… maybe disallow tourist visas but still allow asylum seekers/emigrators. (Both use first visas as an excuse to leave russia)
Should have been suspended ever since the poisoning of litvinenko.
Or the terrorist attacks. Or funding right wing extremism. Or funding brexit. Or being slimy imperial fascists.
Ah yeah, it will save so many lives and stop the war within 24 hours. I can’t even begin to describe how idiotic this is
How about we arrest the Russian oligarchs’ children
Arrest for what?
Ah yes, the north Korean tactic of family punishment. Very liberal democracy of you.
“Won’t somebody think of the oligarchs” - Mao would have shot them, Lenin would have forcefully emigrated them to Siberia, I don’t think you understand how much better European cells are.
Hey look guys a tankie.
Being against the north Korean government is tankie?
When I first read this, I felt, “yeah, fuck those guys” But thinking more about it, the elite Russians with actual power already have residency or citizenship in EU. Spies can enter EU without the tourist visa. This might end up just impacting the anti-Z Russians.
Meh, how useful is a tourist visa for an asylum seeker? I think that’s what we should support them with.
Very useful, ask any LGBT refugee from Russia or Belarus in Spain, Germany, Netherlands or almost any other EU country.
Do you need tourist visa to ask for asylum? All the people crossing border in Ceuta ask for asylums without visas. Once you crossed the border it doesn’t matter if you have a visa or not, you can request asylum. And I think Russia/Belarus/Macedonia/whatever will not stop you from leaving if you don’t have a EU visa. You will be able to reach EU and as for asylum without a visa.
Just recently a man crossed the border from Kaliningrad to get asylum in Lietuva (not the best option but it was the closest). He got denied and now he’s facing jail time in Russia for his social media posts.
If you have a RIGHT to apply it doesn’t mean you’re gonna get approved. There are some anecdotes for denying Russians asking for asylum (or another type of visa, I don’t recall exactly) for having a criminal record in Russia for the exact thing they were trying to run away from (it’s usually donations or social media posts “discrediting” russian army)!
Yes, but if he had tourist visa he would still be denied this asylum and deported, right? Tourist visa might help him stay in EU illegally but it would not help him get asylum.
Bureaucracy is a bitch, unfortunately. Sometimes it’s much better, according to immigration “experts” (people who analyze asylum cases and help with all the docs), to arrive as a tourist and try to find a time slot to present the case.
That’s fair.
Thank you for thinking a bit more than a regular reactionist. This ban will hardly help with EU’s “defense”, and it’s certainly not going to make an ordinary Russian angrier at their government because it’s too fucking expensive to go to EU anyway.
Yeah, some middle-class moskali will cry about it a bit, but above everything else it will make leaving Russia for people in danger more difficult. But yeah, it’s gonna give an illusion that EU finally does something decisive for Ukraine (cough-cough, >4.5 years of the invasion).
“Everyone who disagrees with me is a reactionist, whatever that is.”
It makes it much harder to infiltrate us. Right now our gates are wide open and barbarians are just pouring in.
Barbarians? Are all Russians barbarians? Are the anti Z Russians barbarians?
And are they really pouring in? Are you suffocating from too many Russians? I’m genuinely asking, as I don’t know your experience.
They’s got Russians under their bed and in their closet right now.
This may be arguably the most fascistic thing I’ve read on Lemmy.
Anarchy79? Give me a fucking break.
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Yep that’s a massive security hole.
Yes, average Russians must face the consequences of the war, there’s no point in shielding them. But this move will cost EU tourist money so it’s down to cost-benefit estimates.
As for other reasons, spies will have multiple passports. Russian oligarchs are sanctioned already. Russia is recruiting people inside EU and Ukraine for terrorist attacks, they don’t have to enter EU at all to do it.
Good. Fuck the russians. My grandparents always said “ryssä on ryssä vaikka voissa paistais.” Which means “a russian is a russian even if you fry them in butter.” They never forgot what the soviets did to our country.
This is just overt racism.
My own grandmother said the same and I understand why she said that, but in the end it’s just essentialist bs and xenophobia which we would be better off without in this day and age. Putin and his cronies are the only ones who will thank anyone who tries to keep his political enemies out of his reach.
I have a couple Russian friends. They’re good people, hard working, ethical, considerate. Just like I have a few American friends who are good.
YES, there are shitty Russians, and shitty Americans. Hell, there are even shitty Canadians. But hating an entire country because of their government is just bigotry.
Judge people by their actions, not their government.The government alone does not explain everything. There are deep-running cultural differences between Russia and for example Finland. It’s not like Russia would magically change if the government was replaced. Most likely it would eventually go back to being the country it currently is.
Just like the cultural issues in US won’t be fixed by replacing the president.
I guess it’s the same for every country.
Fins are some of the best people on the planet. Russians are some of the worst. The arithmetic isn’t difficult.
Woo I love sweeping generalizations based on who knows what? Like actually, what are you basing that on? Is it the “happiest country on earth” bs? Or the nordic wellfare utopia bs?
I’ll let you in on a secret: You can’t quantify happiness, those studies are bullshit because everybody has a different standard for what happiness even is.
Another newsflash: Our corrupt government is working overtime to wreck and privatize what remains of our wellfare state and they’re cracking down on labor unions. Four currently serving ministers have talked about “the great replacement” on social media. A fifth minister resigned earlier due to ties to actual neonazis being exposed. Our finance minister / vice PM is one of the aforementioned four, and she has in the past written about how she wishes to kill immigrants. These people were all elected by finnish voters, which isn’t all that surprising considering how much racists and other dipshits we have here.
https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16250.jpeg
I don’t know many russians but the two I’ve gotten to know are nice people. Every country has shitty people in it and every country also has nice people in it.
You’re missing the point! We need these good citizens to help at the least start asking the question of what is happening and why. Yes, there two sides to every story and Russians constantly get presented with a different narrative that what we get in Europe and the Americas. Yes, there could be repercussions for raising certain domestically related questions in Russia. However, this is not a reason to not raise those questions like “Why is all our tourist visas cancelled in the Baltics!? Are we really doing something that could justify this?” This initiative is great for that reason. Heads up for the Overton Window. We must not accept a new normal where waging war on other countries is not a an unacceptable crime that needs the hardest imaginable punishment.
I wasn’t suggesting the visa bans weren’t justified. I was just responding to bigotry in the post I responded to. Hating all Russians just because they live under a sadistic tyrant is no different than hating all Americans for the same reason.
Amen! It’s crazy and dangerous times we live in where there’s no accountability, and no responsibility taken for anything the world leaders do. Putin kind of set the precedence in recent times by just openly invading another country. And Trump has more than caught up openly supporting Putin and Netanyahu. Xi is also doing his best, and these days there’s no political consensus to pressure China to not invade Taiwan. There would basically be no repercussions before it’s too late and the damage done.
I’m sorry but you are very naive.
Straw man
Bro if you get attacked by Canada you deny entry to Canadians. What’s not to get?
Poland and Ukraine also never forgets. And Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, and
YEAH! Fuck everyone! Fuck every person born in a wrong place! Or in a wrong family! Or with a “wrong” sexuality/gender/race!
Based at the start, fuck everyone who blindly serves their authoritarian government
And you feel good inheriting that hatred? There’s a big difference between the general Russian population (those who will be affected by this ban) and Kremlin.
Let’s be better than our ancestors.
Do you know the kind of generational trauma caused by rape, torture, dispossession and murder? Because that’s what I’ve inherited, and yes, as a result I don’t want anything to do with any russians.
Was it the kremlin who raped, tortured and murdered in Bucha, Irpin, Mariupol and other places in their current war? Or was it “normal” russians?
And where does this cycle of hatred end? Do you think the “normal” Russians (soldiers, prisoners, mercenaries) would do these things, like rape, if they didn’t believe either that you deserved it, or that you are not worthy of compassion? Where does this come from, you think?
And how does this translate to tourists? Do they share this perspective? Why do they travel to countries which they know support “the enemy”?
And where does this cycle of hatred end?
Let’s see. Maybe we could start with the russians not invading other countries and brutalizing their people? Or is your point that it’s us on the receiving end who are supposed to magically not hate the invaders?
I’m not saying you shouldn’t be angry, nor that they shouldn’t face repercussions for what has been done, but here we’re talking about banning tourists, i.e. people who travel out of Russia and presents a golden opportunity for two things: Perspective shift and escape. Does it help further the goal of our sanctions by saying “I hate you so I don’t want you around”? What that’s effectively going to do is deny them yet another avenue of perspective, and they will remain in a country full of propaganda reenforcing beliefs that their country and people are doing a fair thing.
And besides, it’s not like they aren’t facing prejudice in the aforementioned countries, and that they’ll have a nice time. Russian speakers are not liked over here, let me assure you.And let me be very clear: Russian soldiers raping moms and stealing their kids is not what I’m saying you shouldn’t hate. They deserve every gram of hatred. But like it or not, we’re not able to directly impose consequences nor deterrents onto the perpetrators from our position, unless we want to go in by force (that means war). So our next best thing is consequences to those who may influence them in one way or another, i.e. the general population. But is hating them a consequence? They don’t see that hatred if all they see are the walls inside their country.
The general population are still to be held responsible for what they directly or indirectly support, even by just being of the same nation. But is preventing tourism something that will make them think “this is my government’s fault”? That’s the question, and your (and many other people’s) hatred is making you blind.
It ends when they fuck off out of the country they invaded. Until then it’s open season.
Say your government invades Greenland, and I see you in my country after that, would sending you back to your country and banning you from returning make you stand up to your government? Or are you going to be like “they can hate all they want: they are wrong.”?
Edit:
Actually, if you would stand up to your government, what would you do? And don’t give me some “guns blazing” shit - we both know risking your life like that is both very ineffective and something you’d never do.
TIL Lemmy doesn’t actually mind xenophobia as long as it’s against Russians.
Would someone PLEASE think of the Russians?!
Of course. They live in a shithole. It’s not their fault where they were born.
Seconded! Whole family for generations suffered under the fucking Russians. And here they come again, like the fucking mongol horde without the charm.
You turn the other cheek while I reload my AK, then everybody wins.
Jim Gaffigan said “I’ve been all over the world, and I’ve learned that there are only two types of people: Good people…and Russians.”
