Yup, I’m posting another this week. Sorry.
This week I’m hoping we can wrangle a solution around AI and our selfhosted community. There are plenty of strong opinions (both pro and con), but one thing is for certain - there needs to be better disclosure in promo posts. Two options (that aren’t mutually exclusive):
- Any posts of an AI focused, AI Developed, etc software gets an [AI] tag. No, a [Not-AI] tag is not needed to accomplish this, thats kind of a “non-golfer” sort of tag.
- Comment requiring an AI disclosure response to every promo post, if its not detailed in the post itself. Specifics (generating docs for commands, translation, whole-boat vibe-coded this app, etc) would be requested.
I will say that having disclosure and/or tagging would mean that comments that just say “slop” or “fuck ai” or whatever would be off topic at that point, that information is already provided, so its just noise (and sometimes pretty uncivil - I’ve been light on that for now due to the need for a rule on this).
The tag [AI] would make it easy to filter out (or search for, if that’s your thing), but there is a wildly different degree of AI use out there, and from the posts with a positive score, its usually due to responsible AI use (translations, a snippet they had to do something obscure with, available to use with AI but doesn’t require it, whatever), which is why I think the disclosure has a place as a benefit to everyone.
Please provide any input or alternative options on this, and I can then put it to a vote like the last one. Comments seem to be the best approach without involving something off-site, but if you have a better idea/option, please share.
Personally. I want an AI tag so I know to look more carefully.
I don’t mind AI speeding up a skilled engineer.
But I do mind a crypto bro, turned AI bro, with little experience, too eagerly advertising their vibe coded app.
Its too exhausting to audit everything I may be interested in and the AI tag would help me to budget and optimize my time.
Sounds like a good solution for me. I think most users dislike completely vibe coded apps, not ai supported apps. So maybe we should be more specific here.
For example: [Vibe-Coded]
This would also support new users finding the right tag.
You know, after last week, I’ve landed on the position that this is an intractable debate. Both sides have valid points and neither side is willing to concede or meet in the middle. That’s just people.
Ironically, I think both sides want he same thing - no bots, no slop.
To that end, for the proper functioning of this group, I think that the wisdom of having an AI tag (even though I personally think it’s a blunt tool) is probably the only productive way forward. The pro and anti sides will not see eye to eye…but at least with [AI] tag, maybe the worst excesses of both may be mitigated.
Cynically, if we look at Reddit as a “what not to do” example…the only thing that stops Lemmy from becoming Reddit 2.0 is friction. The tag provides friction.
Anything that stops the real slop invasion (ala r/localllm et al) is a big plus. I’d like to think that almost all of the users here are savvy enough to tell slop from real, but at the end of the day, if every other post becomes slop, it gets exhausting to deal with.
Bot posts on Lemmy have been on the rise, as (presumably) people migrate from Reddit and bots follow.
If the new community rules + AI tags can mitigate both slop and the FuckAI crowd, I’m for trying it.
EDIT: I think the [AIT] proposed else where is better than straight [AI] tag.
i want a community where AI is not tolerated at all. ai is a corporate grift and there’s no room for it in a self built community founded on resistance of the tech status quo
I think tags are a good idea. I would change the tag to [AI / LLM], and maybe some subtags like [chatbot], [image processing], etc. AI is here to stay, or a least until the US realize the hole under their entire economy (Or both in worst case scenerio) , so regulation is a good solution to this. (In my humble opinion)
Not a fan of a tag, since it’s not transparent enough. Sounds like every minor use of AI would warrant a tag, which seems past the point.
The disclosure comment I feel works well. People that care about if/how AI was used can check it to get a proper impression of the scale of and workflow for AI usage, and those who don’t care can ignore it.
I don’t have a problem with AI. I have a problem with vibe-coded apps released as a one-shot and then never maintained or supported. That’s slop.
I also have a problem with the trace apps (lifttrace, nutritrace, etc.) because while they’re entirely vibe-coded, they are actively developed, but they’re posted here by a brand promotion account that doesn’t otherwise contribute to the community. If there’s any “x% self-ptomotion” threshold, they fail it, because it’s 100% self-promotion.
I know I also reported another post as slop recently but I don’t remember what it was.
Yeah. Abandonware isn’t cool generally
Honest question intended to spark discussion.
Does this mean that all “single developer” projects can be considered abandonware (that aren’t open source/forkable)?
Or really “all” non open source software really. Companies “can” die.
IMO, abandonware means software that is a dead-end upon its very release, with no hopes or plans for anyone to every build upon it. Abandonware is generally not extensible, follows no good design philosophy that would let someone else build it up, and embodies essentially nothing.
Even a 100-line throwaway Python script has more utility to someone when it is published on PasteBin or whatever. But something like a binary executable released with no source code, with no support, and with no intent by the developer to ever make anything more of it, that’s abandonware.
Thanks for the definition!
I’m tracking what you’re saying.
If there’s any “x% self-ptomotion” threshold, they fail it, because it’s 100% self-promotion.
Not with f/loss, just account age and they are above the threshold there.
The cat is out of the bag. AI is common place in coding. I dont see why it matters if it was developed with AI or includes AI. Its the same product with/without.
Its the same product with/without.
AI copies from the middle of the curve of quality averages, throwing out the highest and lowest quality examples (for being different).
Use of AI does have bearing on quality.
A skilled team can undo that harm, and a particularly unskilled team may be better off with AI than without.
But it is incorrect to claim that AI has no impact on quality of outcome.
Eh people vastly over estimate how good of a cider they are. If everyone was as good as they say theybarr online we would not be having all these bugs in the software to begin with.
Fair point.
+1
Home-AI oriented channels like Reddit’s localllama are filled with self promotion garbage, and more will trickle here over time… I’m not even against self promo or heavy coding assistance, but 9-times-out-of-10, the linked repo is nonsense, or straight-up fraudulent. And being obviously vibe-coded is a common tell.
Good to get ahead of this.
Also, +1 on supressing driveby insults. If the post is tagged up front, there’s no need. That being said, it should be okay for users to call out an obvious grift, or a “nonsense repo” that’s actually pure slop.
That being said, it should be okay for users to call out an obvious grift, or a “nonsense repo” that’s actually pure slop.
Especially if the disclosure is blatantly a lie, absolutely. I’d also say if you see any indicators that they are lying in the disclosure, its still worthy of reporting - but I would say report and separately message the “why”, to limit visibility of seeing those indicators.
This sounds like a review / gating problem. Getting people to self filter / self gate is never going to work, and if it does it will work probably on the wrong people.
I would still prefer an additional [Non-AI] tag. Even if people are arguing against it - it is not same omitting an [AI] tag and consciously saying “I never used and never will use AI”. And the latter is the thing most users who want the AI-tag are looking for.
Same. It removes the ability to have plausible deniability of “oh I just forgot to tag it”—no, if you tagged it “non-AI” and it was actually vibe-coded, you clearly deliberately and consciously lied.
I’m going to actually +1 this as well.
I want a community where people can use AI to help build a tool and be able to post about it here. But unfortunately, I’m just not seeing that. The AI-generated apps seem to be coupled to a drive-by, AI generated post (and comment replies) all full of em dashes and the standard Claude slop language.
So, yes, mandate an AI tag. Hold posters to it and remove violators, because it seems to always be the same class of “contributors” that are cosplaying as software developers.
Not sure if your rule changes are touching this, but the worst offenders I don’t want to see here are:
- posting and commenting text written entirely by AI
- not open sourcing or giving any visibility into their code
- adopting a paid model
The people doing that remind me of the people who would approach me 20 years ago saying “hey I have an idea for an app I want you to build and I’ll give you 5% of my company. It’s like Facebook for dogs, but I need you to sign an NDA before I say any more”.
i agree with you. i have been working orofessionally as a software developer for over 27 years. i’ll use ai to help research something but i cant atand low effort full ai projects being posted.
i always saw non devs using ai to fully generate something for them personally to fix a very custom need but why do these people post projects thry honestly had no hand in.
Man it is great for creating custom apps to scratch your need. I have custom programs to filter out blocklists for one country and dynamically update firewall rules on unified gateways. Stuff that well never be put in as it would hurt their paid subscription.
The first bullet is, the other two are covered in the current rule 7 that just went live this week.
While part of promo, this is just about its own item here. In part because it could be something like “I wrote some of this script, got some ai help to talk to this closed device, here’s what I’m using” which doesn’t really fit promo, but still garners a lot of negative attention and comments.
I’m a bit hopeful this one would be of slightly broader benefit than just the straight up promo posts (which has a good amount of requirements now to filter out the garbage, though it does put some delays on f/loss projects that are well intentioned).
Just found the other rule post. Looks great!
I want a community where people can use AI to help build a tool
Sure, that’s github
and be able to post about it here
Fine, but others including myself want that slop as far away from here as possible. Maybe start another community? I suggest calling it c/vibehosted.
Fine, but others including myself want that slop as far away from here as possible
And there are people like me who are fine with moderate AI use and would rather judge the project themselves rather than have them rejected outright.
Maybe there should be a community poll
Why a vote to switch up an existing community? The admins have proposed the [AI] tag to mitigate slop projects.
You said you wanted a community to post vibe coded projects, go ahead and set it up. I don’t see why it needs to be foisted onto c/self hosted, unless you have some vested interest in boosting sloppy mcslopface projects.
I’m not sure I understand. First off I’m not the same person as GP. Second, the admins are proposing an AI tag, which I’m supportive of. I’m just saying that I am OK with AI-assisted projects being posted to this community (with the AI tag of course)
I really is like having the disclosure comment pinned for a more nuanced explanation of what, if any, AI went into a project or post. I think just a tag can’t capture the levels of AI use.
I’m personally a never-genAI, but, unless we go No AI as a community, I don’t think it makes sense to group all projects that touch AI for documentation with all that use it for testing with all that completely let the AI generate all their code, etc. And I don’t think setting a threshold for which get tagged makes sense either. Basically, a tag is misleading no matter how it’s implemented.
I like the AI tag idea. I’m someone who has what I’d call a noderate approach to AI, not an AI bro but any means but I’m also okay with some things built with AI if they’re done with care. If others don’t want to see it, fine, then that’s what a tag could be useful with. However the fuck AI/slop comments on something that admits to being AI is annoying to me. (We know it’s AI, they literally said it is).
If it becomes too much content, then yes would be okay with bi-forcating the community, buy only after it becomes a problem.
I’m not consistent about it yet, but because of exactly this, I’m trying to differentiate the two when I talk.
Responsible automation? I use ML or machine learning.
The grift consuming the world? A Tech Bro? “AI”
I think one of the saddest things is the conflation between the two, like you can’t even talk about one without invoking the other. Or it opening up that whole ethical debate, when you’re just talking about, like, a 100M transcription model trained by one research in some university on a potato.
Yeah it’s heresy on Lemmy, but I do find it genuinely useful. My only regret is that I have to use Claude/Anthropic more than I’d like, which is why I have a vested interest in selfhosting myself. I’d rather figure out how to run the larger models myself and cut them off completely, but you even begin to mention that here and you’ll get downvoted to hell.
You don’t even need Claude anymore. GLM 5.2 API is good enough for 95% of the same things and vastly cheaper.
MiMo 2.5 Pro and Kimi are also very good. And then there’s Cerebras API if you just want simple things done quick.
The thing with self hosting, while awesome, is that it requires a lot of hardware and considerable time investment for what’s essentially a “base tier model,” or at best one step down for what’s still a very cheap API. I still love it, especially the privacy and control aspect, but you aren’t running Claude at home unless you’ve got a threadripper or server hardware collecting dust.
…Hence I can understand why people don’t pursue it. Especially since a cursory Google search will lead you to trying the Deepseek distillation on Ollama (which is awful).
What Ollama did what that distill is shameful.
For those not in the know: they took a small, 8B model with Deepseek fine tune (Qwen3-8B iirc) and claimed it was the 400+B param Deepseek.
They essentially tricked folks into thinking they were running a near-peer SOTA model at home when in fact they were running a small language model (SLM) with crippled settings (again, iirc, ctx -4096 by default).
Lying via obfuscation is still lying.
All while hiding any attribution to the underlying engine, just to start:
https://sleepingrobots.com/dreams/stop-using-ollama/
And that article isn’t comprehensive. A book could be written on damage and drama they’ve caused.
I think it’s actually a pretty interesting case study of how something from the open source community can get co-opted and fucked over.
That article is a good read.
As always, the game plan seems to be “disrupt, own the market, enshittify”.
As always, the game plan seems to be “disrupt, own the market, enshittify”.
But with a slimy veneer of SEO/engagement spamming as the primary business strategy.
That’s where I am okay with hardware, but can’t seem to fit the models on my 3090. I have dreams of something like an A100 someday, but not until there’s a ton of used ones that hit the market. What do you use for your hardware?
I have a single 3090!
That’s the dream GPU, these days.
And I have 128GB CPU RAM. So the best model I can run is MiMo 2.5 (a 300B model) at around 10 tokens/sec, using hybrid CPU inference.
…But that’s the worst-case scenario, for speed. It’s an IQ3_KT quant (a high quality “trellis” quantization type, but very slow on CPU), with a gigantic model that barely fits in my RAM+VRAM combined, with no DFlash or any kind of speculative decoding turned on. I could tune it to be much faster, but I mostly just want “max quality, fast enough to read as it streams, barely fits in memory” for this model.
For speed, or prompts with lots of thinking or context (like agenic use), I just run Qwen 3.6 27B now. That would fit in your 3090 no matter how much CPU RAM you have, but you have to be smart about the backend and quantization you pick. If you just use Ollama, it’s gonna tell you it won’t fit, or use some horrible default that spits out garbage.
…This is what I meant to emphasize.
It’s not just the hardware. You kinda have to be part developer, part enthusiast to even follow this stuff, it up optimally, and keep it up-to-date. If you just try to Google “best LLM for 3090,” you will get absolute garbage.
I’m still impressed you got any MiMo to work at home, at 10 tok/s.
For those trying to visualise that -
https://mikeveerman.github.io/tokenspeed/?rate=10&mode=agent&think=10
Is it a constant 10 or does it (it must do, right?) drop off as context increases?
I imagine you must have compaction or something to mitigate that.
It’s drops off, but not as much as you’d think.
MiMo uses 5:1 SWA, so its long-context compute doesn’t increase as catastrophically as older models. That, and most of the “slowness” comes from the MoE layers being on CPU (whereas the attention layers that get heavier at high context are all on the 3090).
That’s the beauty of these MoEs: they’re just the right size for the “compute-lite” parts to stay in CPU RAM.
I will measure it tomorrow. It is a constant ~9-10TPS for short queries, but definitely slower near my current max context of 85K.
And do you mean prompt compaction? I don’t automate that; when I use that particular model, I tend to use it in Mikupad, aka “raw” notepad mode, and manipulate the context directly. This is so I can do things like chop out conversations, pick different tokens from the logprobs, or edit its own replies/thinking and continue mid reply.
I like manually handling this because, being a local model, prompts are cached. Streaming starts quickly if most of the prompt stays cached, which is actually a really nice advantage over APIs.
I will say that having disclosure and/or tagging would mean that comments that just say “slop” or “fuck ai” or whatever would be off topic at that point, that information is already provided, so its just noise (and sometimes pretty uncivil - I’ve been light on that for now due to the need for a rule on this).
good idea
it won’t solve the “noise” problem though. I was relatively active on !imageai@sh.itjust.works and we were constantly nagged by sloppies even though the community is clearly dedicated to generativeArt
No, but with a rule in place like these, its clearly out of place and can be removed. I don’t harbor any delusions about not seeing those sort of comments.
Would be nice though. And I like being nice.
it won’t solve the “noise” problem though. I was relatively active on !imageai@sh.itjust.works and we were constantly nagged by sloppies even though the community is clearly dedicated to generativeArt
Maybe y’all would get less hate if the sub was called “generativeArt” instead of grifterly claiming to be “AI”.
i joined the community, i didn’t create it.
I don’t have a problem with people talking about different open source technologies.
But I do have a problem with this comm promoting the grift that “AI” exists.
What exactly is this post about? Chat bots? Image/video processing? Content generation?
None of this stuff is “AI”. Please don’t label it as such. It’s grifter nonsense.
